野生动物,"野"在何处?(下)
日期:2021-10-27 15:25

(单词翻译:单击)

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That was excellent. Thank you.

讲得太好了。谢谢。

And I know it was a short talk, so I want you to expand upon it a little bit.

我知道这是个简短的演讲,所以我想让你再扩展一下。

You talked about our ethical obligations to these wild animals.

你谈到了我们对这些野生动物的道德义务。

What do you think those specifically are, after the journey of writing this book?

在写完这本书的过程中,你认为这些义务具体是什么?

Well, I do think that because we have created this world, that because there's so much human influence, that we do bear some kind of collective responsibility,

嗯,我确实认为,因为我们创造了这个世界,因为有这么多的人类影响,我们确实承担着某种集体责任,

especially in situations where we can clearly see that animals are suffering or not doing well because of our influence.

特别是在我们可以清楚地看到动物因为人类的影响而遭受痛苦或困难的情况下。

So there's a sort of a very intuitive ethical relationship there.

所以这里面有一种非常直观的伦理关系。

If you actually knock someone over in a crowd, you feel like you have the responsibility to pick them back up.

如果你真的在人群中撞倒了某人,你会觉得你有责任把他们扶起来。

So I think there's a kind of a parallel there.

所以我认为这是一种平行的关系。

But I also think that if we have obligations to wild animals that go beyond just letting nature take its course, then I think we have to learn more about them to figure out how to best serve them.

但我也认为,如果我们对野生动物的义务超出了顺其自然的范围,那么我们必须更多地了解它们,以弄清如何最好地服务它们。

And I think that includes figuring out what really makes them flourish.

我认为这包括弄清楚什么能真正使它们繁荣。

And I do think that that kind of flourishing -- And this is the word that you see in discussions about Aristotle, right, like, the flourishing of a human --

我确实认为,那种繁荣--这是你在讨论亚里士多德时看到的词,对吧,比如,人类的繁荣--

But to think about a flourishing of an animal is a little more complicated.

但要考虑动物的繁荣,就有点复杂了。

But I do think that for many animals, especially animals that are close to us on the taxonomic tree of life, like chimpanzees and other large mammals, that being able to make your own choices is part of that flourishing.

但我确实认为,对于许多动物,特别是在生命分类树上与我们相近的动物,如黑猩猩和其他大型哺乳动物,能够做出自己的选择是繁荣的一部分。

So that means we want to balance our intervention with our respect for their autonomy.

因此,这意味着我们要平衡我们的干预和我们对他们自主性的尊重。

And I think that's really tricky sometimes.

而我认为这有时真的很棘手。

So let's turn to some audience questions.

现在我们来看看观众们提的一些问题吧。

Starting with Kim, who I feel may have read your recent op-ed in "The New York Times."

从金开始,我觉得他可能读过你最近在 "纽约时报 "上发表的专栏文章。

"How do you feel about zoos or sanctuaries for wild animals?" Is there a better way to protect them?

"你对野生动物的动物园或庇护所有什么看法?" 是否有更好的方式来保护它们?

And is there a better way to spend time with animals, which is what zoos offer, and have them accessible to humans, but also be sure that the animals' kind of flourishing comes first?

是否有更好的方式来与动物相处,这正是动物园所提供的,并让它们为人类所接触,同时也确保动物的蓬勃发展被放在第一位?

Right. Thanks, Kim.

好的。谢谢你,金。

I did write a piece about this recently, and the piece is sort of drawn from the book.

我最近确实写了一篇关于这个问题的文章,这篇文章有点像是从这本书中提取的。

So if you enjoyed that piece, there's more goodness in the book.

所以,如果你喜欢那篇文章,书中还有更多好东西。

But I do think -- After researching zoos and the sort of happiness level of animals in zoos, I came to realize that there's a sort of a problem with the business model of zoos,

但我确实认为 -- 在研究了动物园和里面的动物的幸福水平之后,我意识到,动物园的商业模式有一个问题,

which is that the very animals that are most likely to get people in the door, are the ones that do the worst in captivity.

那就是最有可能吸引人们来到动物园的动物,正是那些在圈养中表现最差的动物。

So there's a real problem there, which is that if zoos got rid of all of the animals that tend to show kind of behaviors that show they're unhappy,

所以这里面有一个真正的问题,那就是如果动物园放弃了所有倾向于表现出不快乐的动物,

like pacing or rocking or repetitive behaviors or other kinds of behavioral problems, they'd be left with animals that aren't as much of a draw.

比如踱步、摇晃、重复性行为或其他类型的行为问题,剩下的就只有那些不那么吸引人的动物。

So I think that puts them in an awkward position.

所以我认为这使他们处于一个尴尬的境地。

I do think that zoos should stop breeding animals that aren't a part of a sort of a legitimate conservation breeding program that has a real chance of going back out into the wild someday.

我确实认为动物园应该停止繁殖那些不属于合法的保护性繁殖计划的动物,这些动物有一天真的有机会回到野外。

So I think it's a lot easier to ethically justify breeding animals in captivity if they or their grandchildren are someday going to taste freedom again.

所以我认为,如果圈养的动物或它们的孙子有一天会再次品尝到自由的滋味,那么从道德上讲,繁殖动物就容易得多。

But if you're just breeding tigers and elephants over and over again just for display in captivity, I don't think that's great.

但是,如果你只是反复繁殖老虎和大象,只是为了在圈养中展示,我认为这样不好。

Every time I see the birth announcement of some new adorable gorilla baby, my heart breaks a little bit because I know this gorilla baby is never getting out.

每次我看到一些新的可爱的大猩猩宝宝的出生公告,我就会有点难过,因为我知道这个大猩猩宝宝永远不会出去了。

That's not like, you know, this gorilla is going to spend its formative years at the such-and-such zoo and then it's going to return to the jungle.

并不是说,这只大猩猩宝宝只需要在动物园里度过成长阶段,然后就可以回到丛林里去了。

That's not happening.

这是不可能的。

Sanctuaries are a different proposition.

庇护所的情况完全不同。

So sanctuaries don't breed their animals.

庇护所不会繁殖它们的动物。

They just take care of animals that can't return to the wild for one reason or another.

他们只是照顾那些由于某种原因不能回到野外的动物。

So I think that they're at a much better place ethically.

因此,我认为他们在道德上处于一个更好的位置。

Oh, but let me address the question of how you then see animals, right, if we remove these breeding populations of fun animals from zoos, how do you have that experience?

哦,但让我来谈谈你当时如何看待动物的问题,对了,如果动物园移除了这些有趣的动物繁殖群体,你又如何拥有这种体验呢?

Well, first of all, there is an amazing ability for us to virtually interact with animals through nature documentaries, which are better than ever.

嗯,首先,我们有一种惊人的能力,可以通过自然纪录片与动物进行虚拟互动,现在的纪录片拍的比以往任何时候都好。

I actually wrote about them recently, too, but their filming can get you closer to a wild animal than you would ever be wise to do in the real world.

事实上,我最近也写了关于它们的文章,但拍摄纪录片可以让你更接近野生动物,这比你在现实世界中的做法更明智。

But I also think that we need to sort of reshift our thinking a little bit around the animals that exist in our own ecosystems, even in our city ecosystems, right?

但我也认为,我们需要围绕存在于我们自己的生态系统中的动物,甚至在我们的城市生态系统中的动物,一点点地重新转变我们的思维,对吗?

You can see a surprising diversity of bird life, insect life in some case, and mammal life inside even very busy cities.

在某些情况下,你可以看到令人惊讶的鸟类或昆虫的多样性,甚至在非常繁忙的城市里看到多样的哺乳动物。

And realizing that those animals are really awesome, too, and just because they aren't elephants, we've forgotten to take pleasure in encountering them.

会意识到这些动物也是非常棒的,只是因为它们不是大象,我们已经忘记了在遇到它们时的乐趣。

I think a perspective shift there can be really helpful.

我认为在这方面进行视角转换会很有帮助。

Now, Catherine and Gordon want us to take this to the sea.

现在,凯瑟琳和戈登想让我们把这个问题切换到海洋上。

How does this all apply to sea creatures, which are obviously in a far different position than the land animals?

这一切如何适用于海洋生物,它们的处境显然与陆地动物大不相同?

But there are more of them, right? Yes, great question.

但它们的数量更多,对吗?是的,很好的问题。

First of all, I think that many of my critiques of zoos apply to aquaria as well.

首先,我认为,我对动物园的许多批评也适用于水族馆。

And, you know, certainly there has been a real public discussion about the captivity of whales and other marine mammals.

而且,对于鲸鱼和其他海洋哺乳动物的圈养问题,已经有了确实的公众讨论。

So I think the tide is turning on that.

因此,我认为这方面的潮流正在转变。

I did read, while I was researching this book, I read a book that I recommend by Jonathan Balcombe about the secret lives of fish, which really did blow my mind in terms of the cognitive abilities of fish.

研究这本书的时候,我读了一本我推荐的乔纳森-巴尔科姆写的关于鱼的秘密生活的书,这本书在鱼的认知能力方面确实让我震惊。

And I think that many of us have grown up with this idea that fish are somehow dumber than land animals or that they don't, you know, that they don't feel pain, is a common thing that people have said about fish.

我们中的许多人在成长过程中都有这样的想法,即鱼在某种程度上比陆地动物更笨,或者它们不会感到疼痛,这是人们对鱼的一种常见说法。

This is not true.

这不是真的。

So I think that much of this applies to, you know, to the marine world as well.

因此,我认为这大部分也适用于海洋世界。

And in the book, I talk about, you know, what can we do for wild animals?

在书中,我谈到了,我们能为野生动物做些什么?

And honestly, one of the biggest things we can do is try to address climate change and habitat destruction.

老实说,我们能做的最大的事情之一是努力解决气候变化和栖息地的破坏。

That's really the biggie, because then we'd have fewer of these confusing conundrums where we have to decide whether or not to intervene in these complicated ways.

这是真正的大事,因为这样我们就会减少这些令人困惑的难题,我们必须决定是否要以这些复杂的方式进行干预。

If they have more space and they have a more stable climate, they can do a lot of flourishing on their own and we don't have to get into as many moral dilemmas.

如果它们有更多的空间,有更稳定的气候,它们就可以自行繁衍更多,我们就不必陷入那么多的道德困境。

So honestly, if you find these ethical pickles uncomfortable, the best way to avoid the ethical pickle is to create a lot of stable habitat for non-humans.

所以说实话,如果你觉得这些道德难题让人不舒服,避免道德难题的最好办法就是为非人类生物创造大量稳定的栖息地。

So you mentioned the Inuit earlier and their special relationship with the polar bear.

所以你刚才提到了因纽特人以及他们与北极熊的特殊关系。

Is there a way that we could better, kind of, steward wild areas, Lynn wants to know, and perhaps the folks who have been living alongside those wild animals the longest could be paid or hired in some way to be caretakers of that wild environment?

有没有一种方法可以让我们更好地管理野生区域,林恩想知道,也许那些与这些野生动物生活在一起时间最长的人可以得到报酬,或者以某种方式被雇用,成为野生环境的看守人?

Yeah, I think that is kind of how the conservation movement is trending, honestly, I think indigenous protected areas are the sort of hot new topic in conservation.

是的,我认为这是动物保护运动的一种趋势,说实话,我认为本土保护区是保护方面的一种新的热门话题。

They're getting set up in different parts around the world.

世界各地都在建立保护区。

Canada has just announced quite a few of them over the last five years.

过去五年,加拿大宣布了不少保护区。

There was a paper that came out recently that got a lot of attention, showing that in Australia, Brazil and Canada, indigenous protected areas have higher levels of biodiversity than parks,

最近有一篇论文引起了很多人的注意,显示在澳大利亚、巴西和加拿大,原住民保护区的生物多样性水平高于公园,

suggesting that, yes, those management approaches that are millennia-old are really effective in keeping a kind of a multi-species-community going.

这表明,是的,这些有几千年历史的管理方法在保持多物种社区方面确实有效。

So I think there's a lot of interest in that, a lot of hope that could be a way forward.

因此,我认为人们对这一点很感兴趣,有很多希望,这可能是一个前进的方向。

In the book, I talk about going to the Peruvian Amazon, where there's a big park called Manu, which is one of the highest biodiversity parks probably on Earth,

在书中,我谈到了秘鲁亚马逊,那里有一个叫马努的大公园,这可能是地球上生物多样性最高的公园之一,

and they have people living inside of it, the Machiguenga, and some more sort of old-fashioned conservationists feel that the presence of the Machiguenga in the park is a problem because they hunt there.

公园里住的有人,Machiguenga,一些比较守旧的保护主义者觉得Machiguenga在公园里的存在是一个问题,因为他们在那里狩猎。

But it seems pretty clear from the research I read and from my time that I spent in the park that they're actually acting as de facto biodiversity managers and guards.

但从我读到的研究和我在公园里度过的时间来看,这一点很明确,他们实际上是在充当生物多样性管理者和卫士。

And yes, they're hunting, but they're hunting in a sustainable way.

是的,他们会打猎,但他们是以一种可持续的方式打猎。

So, yeah, I think that this is honestly the best way forward, right, because it marries the sort of justice cause of indigenous sovereignty with the pragmatic cause of getting the people who are best qualified to manage landscapes on the job.

所以,我认为这确实是最好的前进方式,因为它将原住民主权的正义事业与让最有资格管理景观的人上岗的务实事业结合起来。

So, yes, I agree with Lynn completely.

所以,我完全同意林恩的观点。

Amazing. Well, thank you again for this wonderful talk and conversation.

太精彩了。再次感谢你精彩的对话。

And it truly is a great book. Best of luck with with everything.

而且这确实是一本伟大的书。祝你一切顺利。

Great. Thanks so much. Goodbye and thank you.

太感谢了。再见,谢谢你。

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